This page documents the complaint filed against Daniel Carr with the ANA by Roger W Burdette and the rebuttal and final disposition of said complaint.

 

TABLE of CONTENTS:

 

A)   Scan of official letter from the ANA informing Daniel Carr of complaint, with instructions.

B)    Scan of complaint filed by Roger W Burdette with the ANA.

C)    Text of rebuttal sent to the ANA by Daniel Carr (with some recent updates).

D)   Scan of official letter to both parties from the ANA announcing the final ruling of the ANA board.

E)    Statements made by Roger W Burdette since the ANA ruling against him and in favor of Daniel Carr.

 

 

A.

 

 

B.

 

 

C.

Kim Kiick,

ANA Executive Director

818 North Cascade Avenue

Colorado Springs, CO

80903-3279

09 July 2014

Daniel Carr

Moonlight Mint

 

 

 

Greetings Director Kiick,

 

This letter is my formal reply to Roger W. Burdette’s complaint.

 

Table of Contents

Section 1: Rebuttal of Accusations by Roger W. Burdette.

Section 2: Commentary Regarding the ANA Bylaws and Codes of Ethics.

Section 3: Ethics Violations and Prior Statements by Roger W. Burdette.

                    Section 4: Conclusion.

 

 

Section 1.

Rebuttal of Accusations by Roger W. Burdette.

NOTE: The sub-section numbers in this section refer to the items in Mr. Burdette’s original complaint.

 

The US Mint has produced proof Silver Eagle coins each year since 1986, except for 2009. The only Silver Eagle coins produced by the US Mint in 2009 were non-proof regular bullion, issued with no mint mark.

 

In 2010 I produced novelty items which were modified 2009 US Silver Eagle coins. They were produced exclusively by over-striking genuine non-proof US Mint 2009 Silver Eagles. The over-striking process imparted a proof-like appearance to the coins. For purposes of additional positive identification, a prominent “DC” mark was permanently struck onto the coins’ surface (on the reverse, where the US Mint sometimes places a “P”, “S”, or “W” mark).

 

These coins were ALWAYS offered with full disclosure as to their nature and origins. They were never shown or offered on TV, but they were marketed by a company that was associated with the Home Shopping Network. All of the coins sold through that company were encapsulated by ANACS. The labels in those holders clearly stated right on the front:

2009                            *DC

Proofed Overstrike 1oz

Mint State Silver Eagle

Privately Minted

 

The reverse of the holder labels was marked:

* Each overstrike was created
using an actual retired Denver
Mint coin press owned and
operated by numismatic
sculptor DANIEL CARR.
For identification purposes,
a “DC” mark was added to the
reverse of the coin.

 

Coins that I distributed were packaged in double-pocket non-PVC flips with the coin in one pocket and a small certificate in the other. The certificate stated:

“2009 US Silver Eagle Dollar, Proof Finish Over-Struck on 2009, US Silver Eagle (1 Troy Oz 999).
 With D & Crescent Moon (“DC”) Mint Mark. Over-Struck Using Surplus US Denver Mint Coin Press.”

 

The coins that I distributed were sold via my web site. The product description clearly indicated the nature and origin of the coins. Although the coins were sold out in 2010, the original product page is still viewable at this link:

http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1-2.aspx

I urge all interested parties to thoroughly examine that product page.

 

Counter-stamped and novelty coins have a long tradition of being collectable. The original issue price for the majority of 2009-DC “proofed” Silver Eagles was $80 to $110. Recent eBay sales can be tracked by searching for “Carr 2009 Silver Eagle” (or similar) in the Sold Items “Coins & Paper Money” category.   Most recent sales have realized prices in the range of $125 to $200. So the original purchasers of these coins have not been harmed financially.

 

1.1.I have not produced any “proofed” 2009-DC over-struck Silver Eagles since 2010. So the statement that I continue to do so is false.

1.2.Same as 1.1. The over-struck coins still show the original designers’ initials (“AW” on the obverse, “JM” on the reverse). My added “DC” is in the location of a mint mark, and is not in place of  “AW” or “JM”. Also note that since the original designs for the Silver Eagle were paid for by taxpayer dollars, they are not copyrighted.

1.3.If a legal-tender coin has “altered surfaces”, is it still legal tender ? Mr. Burdette has not cited, and can not cite, any legal precedent which indicates that a genuine coin with altered surfaces is “counterfeit”.

1.4.See 1.1 and 1.3. No proof-finish 2009 Silver Eagles were produced by the US Mint. No US coins have ever had a “DC” mint mark. A genuine non-proof 2009 US Silver Eagle, which has been altered to have these features, is not in any category of: “counterfeit”; “copy”; “re-strike”; or “reproduction”.

1.5.See 1.1. As stated previously, the 2009-DC “proofed” Silver Eagles were never actually shown or marketed on television.

 

I have produced several other “fantasy-date” over-strike coins. All are listed in my Production Blogs at this internet link: http://www.moonlightmint.com/dc-coin_over-struck_list.htm . All of these are coins which, according to the US Government, were never issued and do not exist. In each case, an original coin is altered (over-struck) to show a date which does not previously exist for that type. The over-striking process does not involve any adding or removing of metal, and does not involve any heating or melting. Examples are “1945” Roosevelt Dimes and “1964-D” Peace Dollars. As altered genuine coins, these are not “counterfeits”. They do not reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item (other than the coin type it was originally) since the date on the piece is not a valid date for the type. In other words: the date is a major focal point; to properly value a coin, one must first determine the date on the coin before looking it up in a price guide. The 1964-D Peace Dollars are an unusual special case in that the coins were actually produced. But according to the US Government, all were destroyed and none survived. In addition, any such coins would be illegal to own, should someone somehow be in possession of an original 1964-D Peace Dollar.

 

In EVERY case, these over-strike fantasy-date coins were sold with full disclosure, the same as with the 2009-DC “proofed” Silver Eagles. As an example, my original product page for the “1964-D” over-strike Peace Silver Dollars can be viewed at this link:

http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1.aspx

 

And recent prices (for actual sales) are higher than the original issue prices in almost all cases.

1.6.The items that I continue to produce and sell are genuine US coins which have been altered (over-struck) to have dates which were not originally issued for that type. As such, they fall into a category of collectible altered coins like carved “hobo” nickels. And, of course, all such offerings are marketed with full disclosure of the pertinent facts of their origins.

1.7.A genuine US coin, which has been altered to have a date that was never issued for that type, is not in any category of: “counterfeit”; “copy”; “re-strike”; or “reproduction”.

 

According to the US Mint itself, altering of US coins is only a problem if it is done with fraudulent intent. Title 18 of U.S. Code, section 331, is posted on the US Mint web site at:

http://www.usmint.gov/consumer/18USC331.cfm

The US Mint has underlined the key word on that page:

(Text as of 2/19/02) 18 U.S.C. §331:

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled or lightened - shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. (Emphasis added.)

 

 

 

Section 2.

Commentary Regarding the ANA Bylaws and Codes of Ethics.

 

Mr. Burdette cited this entry in the ANA Member Codes of Ethics:

“Not to sell, exhibit, produce or advertise a counterfeit, copy, re-strike or reproduction of any numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word “counterfeit”, “copy”, “restrike” or “reproduction” incused in the metal or printed on the paper, with the exception of items generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented as genuine.”

 

To reiterate my previous contention: a genuine US coin that has been over-struck (altered) to have a date which was never originally issued for that type, is not any type of counterfeit, copy, re-strike, or reproduction. And the fantasy-date over-strikes that I have produced are, in fact, items that are generally accepted by numismatists (as are carved “hobo” nickels and many types of counter-marked and otherwise defaced coins). Evidence that my over-strikes are generally accepted by numismatists:

Mr. Burdette also cited this entry in the ANA Member Dealer Codes of Ethics:

“To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.”

 

The only descriptor in this entry which is in any away applicable to my fantasy-date over-strikes is “altered”. But clearly, the selling of altered coins such as carved “hobo” nickels is perfectly acceptable, so long as the item is not misrepresented to potential buyers.

 

And lastly, Mr. Burdette cited this entry in the ANA Member Dealer Codes of Ethics:

“To abide by all local, state and federal laws in all numismatic matters and to assist in the prosecution of violators of the law in this respect.”

 

I have followed all local, state, and Federal laws. Mr. Burdette has not cited, and can not cite, anything to the contrary. His claim that a fantasy-date over-strike coin is a “counterfeit” is merely his opinion, and is not supported by any legal precedent.

 

The following is my commentary on specific points in the ANA bylaws.

 

ANA bylaws ARTICLE III b) i): Every sale I have made was honest, with full disclosure of the pertinent facts regarding the origins of the numismatic items being offered.

 

ANA bylaws ARTICLE III b) ii): To reiterate: the selling of altered coins such as carved “hobo” nickels is perfectly acceptable, so long as the item is not misrepresented to potential buyers. I have always gone to great lengths to properly represent the numismatic items that I have produced and offered for sale. Mr. Burdette has not shown, and can not show, otherwise.

 

ANA bylaws ARTICLE III b) iii): Obviously, this section is intended to apply to “whizzing” and forms of improper cleaning, not to over-struck or counter-stamped novelty items.

 

ANA bylaws ARTICLE III c): I have never failed to offer a customer a full refund for their purchase of one of my numismatic items, even years after the fact.

 

ANA bylaws ARTICLE III d): See the first two paragraphs of Section 2 above.

 

 

 

 

 

Section 3.

Ethics Violations and Prior Statements by Roger W. Burdette.

 

Since approximately 2010, Mr. Burdette has engaged in what appears to be some type of internet “stalking” targeted towards myself. Evidence of this is presented later in this section, in the form of past internet postings by Mr. Burdette.

 

Mr. Burdette has violated the ANA bylaws, ARTICLE III Section 2 a). Specifically:

 

 

Evidence of both is presented next, in the form of past internet postings by Mr. Burdette.

Note that Mr. Burdette has, for the last few years, been banned from posting at the Collectors Universe (PCGS) forums because of comments he made there that were deemed inappropriate by that forum’s moderators.

 

3.1. The Langbord trial.

Mr. Burdette was hired as the Langbord’s “expert” witness in the case where the Langbords were attempting to recover the ten 1933 Double Eagles seized by the US Mint. The Government’s lawyer discredited the testimony of Mr. Burdette by presenting some past comments that Mr. Burdette had written on the Collectors Universe (PCGS) forum. This, quite possibly, cost the Langbords the case. Coin World reported it all here:

http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2011/07/1933-double-eagle-trial-roger-burdette-takes-.html
And here:

http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2011/07/1933-double-eagle-trial-sides-finish-their-ca.html
The key portion of that article: “Perhaps more problematic was a Feb. 10, 2009, posting that has since become inaccessible where Burdette wrote to the effect of mustering all the hearsay and innuendo required to obfuscate the facts; adding, ‘I’ll do it at $300 an hour.’ “ Given statements like that, it is hard to give credibility to anything that Mr. Burdette says.

 

3.2. Mr. Burdette’s change of heart.

At one point, even after I had produced some of the 2009-DC “proofed” Silver Eagle over-strikes and “1964-D” Peace Silver Dollar over-strikes, Mr. Burdette seemed to have a favorable opinion of me (as illustrated by these posts):

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“Just picked up a modern pattern by Daniel Carr”

Monday February 04, 2008 4:56 PM

It's called a "concept token" or something similar because it is not a real coin. It also is not a legitimate pattern produced by the Mint or Treasury (or authorized by them) so it is not a real "pattern" piece.

 

Enjoy it for what it is: a very nicely made idea for what the designer thinks a coin should look like.

“Just picked up a modern pattern by Daniel Carr”

Monday February 04, 2008 5:03 PM

Daniel Carr, the designer, has them struck by a private mint and sells them to collectors. If your design skills are as good as his, you could do the same.

“Will the NORFED / LIBERTY Dollars Be a collectable...”

Sunday March 02, 2008 2:01 PM

There's nothing wrong with the silver medals so long as they are not presented as if they were money. Frozen cat poop is collectible if you care to save it....so are beanie babies and 200-year old brandy.

If you are really asking, “Will they be worth more than bullion?” no one can say. If you want attractive modern coin-related medals, look at some of Daniel Carr’s work.

“1964-D Peace Dollar Paradox ??”

Sunday February 21, 2010 6:50 PM

I don't believe there's any problem with Daniel Carr's overstruck pieces. He's not making any claim that could be false or misleading.

Concerning counterfeits, the key parts were denomination, nationality and design. The date is only incidental, so long as the approved design remains legal tender. [This is from a Treasury Dept attorney’s opinion in the 1940s – so it’s just historical.]

 

 

 

But then things took a turn.

 

 

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“I can't believe no proof gold/silver eagles for another year.”

Sunday June 13, 2010 5:15 PM

In my opinion, "mutilated" is completely accurate and appropriate – your mutilations are “crude and/or random damage to the coin.” You propose to mutilate legal tender and place yourself in a position little different than Chinese making "remanufactured Trade Dollars" and the like.

Additionally, you have the gall to stick your initials on the mutilated coins as if you designed them. What a disturbed perversion…..

“I can't believe no proof gold/silver eagles for another year.”

Sunday June 13, 2010 7:28 PM

…sounds a lot like the excuse of people who whiz coins, or polish them, or laser to change the original surface, or putty, or add a mintmark or tool a coin – all mutilations of an original coin. I sure hope it has not become “Dr. Carr.”

WL halves have a lot of “holes” in the series. Why not mutilate some to fill those spots? ... no shiny “proof” 1935 halves?...no problem, just polish up a bunch and help collectors “fill that void.”

Do you actually believe ANY collector of ASEs, particularly slabbed ones, would put one of those crude abominations in their collection? What happens to the pride of ownership?

Given positive contributions of the past, one can only presume there has been some sort of traumatic event to place Mr. Carr on the path presented in earlier posts.

I have nothing more to say.

“Daniel Carr finally issues 1964-D fantasy overstrike”

Thursday September 16, 2010 3:10 PM

What a load of self-delusional krapski. It does not matter what you strike a counterfeit on, or if you cast it in germanium - if it looks like a coin, has a monetary value in US dollars stated on it, and does not have the "COPY" stamp, it is a counterfeit.

Doesn’t matter if it’s made in China, or a Denver warehouse, or some other place.

Maybe the Judge will listen to a “temporary insanity” plea….?

PS: So-called "artistic intent" is immaterial. Just a final opinion……doesn’t bode well for the hobby if this foolishness is supported by coin collectors.

“Should DANSCO Now Alter their Peace Dollar Album to allow for the 1964?”

Saturday September 18, 2010 8:30 PM

The original question is an absurdity – do album manufacturers do that for other fakes? If you want to collect fakes, you can buy full sets in an album from several Chinese suppliers – and many are better quality that Mr. Carr’s counterfeits. However, some Chinese sellers manage a smidgen of honesty by stamping “COPY” on the fakes.

Legal tender – which is what a counterfeit like Mr. Carr's "1964-D" is attempting to imitate – is covered by Federal anti-counterfeiting laws.

It amazes me that someone claiming to be interested in designing real United States coins, could possibly possess the level of greed, self-serving ignorance, arrogance and personal lack of ethics as to produce a counterfeit; or to knowingly alter silver bullion pieces and add his own initials – as if he had any role in designing or sculpting the coin.

This is at least as disgusting – maybe more so – as John Ford’s lengthy series of fake western gold bars. It might be worse, because a silver dollar is recognized by millions as a real coin, and western assayer bars are known to few.

To honest collectors, sorry for the rant --

“Carr 1964-D toner on ebay.......”

Tuesday April 05, 2011 2:41 PM

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“Can someone summarize the DCarr mega-thread?”

Sunday September 19, 2010 4:58 PM

Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl. Boy buys big press. Boy makes fake coins. Girl, who is now a Fed Judge, sentences Boy to 10-20 for counterfeiting. Press turns out to be friendly android.

 

This post (above) by Mr. Burdette was especially strange, offensive, and vulgar. The intended message to me seems clear: go perform an unnatural sex act with my coin press.

 

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“CU forums discussed in CW article on Carr fantasy Peace $”

Monday September 27, 2010 9:15 AM

Yep. Counterfeiting coins, especially when done deliberately by someone "in" the hobby, is a fascinating subject. Really goes to the ethical and moral duplicity question.

“Open request to Dan Carr”

Thursday October 07, 2010 6:56 PM

Why not move to Red China were you can make all the fakes you want and not be bothered with ethics, morals or the law?

“Very cool 1964-D FOS Peace $1 production blog from Daniel Carr”

Wednesday November 03, 2010 6:32 AM

Seems like a lot of effort expended about a counterfeit. Mr. Carr has charted and is sailing his course. Let the law take care of him.

“I find this Coin World letter to the editor disturbing. What do you think?”

Thursday November 04, 2010 4:45 PM

Nice to know Mr. Carr now understands the basic objections to making and selling counterfeit US coins. The ANA code of ethics and similar guidelines uniformly condemn such activities. Many collectors feel they are not only illegal, but immoral and unethical.

Of course, this activity is only an allegation and must be proven in a court of law.

Sound ethical lessons seem too often overridden by greed.

In response to the last post above, I replied in the same thread:

 

“I see you edited your post significantly and removed the inappropriate reference about [my] pending penitentiary residency. That was wise of you, since it was bordering on slander. Are you going to go back and edit all your other previous posts to remove such references ?

> Nice to know Mr. Carr now understands the basic objections to making and selling counterfeit US coins.

I've always known, and to imply that I only now understand that is totally false. And I've never made a counterfeit coin. For the umpteenth time: I only alter existing genuine coins to give them the appearance of coins that don't exist, and it is all done with full disclosure.”

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“I find this Coin World letter to the editor disturbing. What do you think?”

Friday November 05, 2010 7:53 AM

For those who wonder, Mr. Carr is presumed innocent of the crime of counterfeiting until convicted, regardless of public opinion.

Large quantities of replica silver dollars including the required "COPY" stamp have been produced over the past years. Mr. Carr decided not to stamp his pieces as required by the Hobby Protection Act. He will have to sort this out with his lawyers and federal prosecutors.

It is a waste of time to comment further.

 

 

At one point, Mr. Burdette complimented my design skills. But later:

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“New dollar bill redesign article.”

Monday September 27, 2010 3:58 PM

These kind of things pop up every few years...the BEPs security methods continue to be the world standard.

(Hmmm --- thought Mr. Carr only made counterfeits….Sorry, but his paper currency design is butt-ugly…looks like a 10yr old did it with paper mache and silver paint…after studying about ancient Egypt.)

“About a month ago a friend/customer came in asking about Ameros....”

Friday October 08, 2010 8:55 PM

Gaaak!
Fifth grade "art" class debris, and a counterfeit silver dollar.

“About a month ago a friend/customer came in asking about Ameros....”

Saturday October 09, 2010 9:13 AM

<< Gaaak!
Fifth grade "art" class debris, and a counterfeit silver dollar. Look at the FIDEM medals if you want to see real medallic artists' work. Visit Fédération Internationale de la Médaille d'Art. [www.fidem-medals.org] >>

That was one of the most mean spirited comments I've ever read on these boards. MJ

Hardly "mean spirited" - just honest, MJ.
There is nothing "wrong" with Mr. Carr's medals and tokens if that is your taste in “art.” They would fit well with any early 20th century group of anonymous, third-rate medals sold at exhibitions and fairs. You’ll find a lot of these in medal dealers’ junk boxes. But please do not credit the material with anything more than what they are.

Did you look at the FIDEM medallic art? Have you looked at other medallic art? Have you read about it, or gone to a top museum and studied their medals? Have you discussed medallic art with those who collect, understand and appreciate it as a sculptural form?

PS: The posting of more of his awful stuff (above) only reinforces my opinion of Mr. Carr's creative output. Ordinary courtesy has restrained prior comment on expressing a contrary opinion of Mr. Carr’s “art.” However, since he has moved into counterfeiting US coins, and thumbing his nose at the Hobby Protection Act, and enjoying the handsome profit from such illicit activity, that restraint is removed.

“Newp from D Carr, Trade Dollar [2010]”

Tuesday February 15, 2011 7:48 AM

Gaak! It's not your photography talents that are mediocre - more 5th grade "art."

“Newp from D Carr, Trade Dollar [2010]”

Tuesday February 15, 2011 5:49 PM

Awful! Possibly not up to 5th grade standards....but elementary school kids are learning….

These mediocre caricatures are like so much of the same draughtsman's products. Some of the old designs proposed for state quarters had much better composition and proportion. Not this or the other more recent medals. Some might like them, and that is fine for them.

 

3.3. Mr. Burdette also seems to have some sort of disturbing hatred towards cats.

As a cat owner and coin collector, I find his comments regarding cats to be offensive and disgusting. On numerous occasions, Mr. Burdette has inserted such references into his posts for no particular reason:

 

PCGS Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“Will the NORFED / LIBERTY Dollars Be a collectable...”

Sunday March 02, 2008 2:21 PM

Maybe these would improve numismatic sales?
"Free kitten with every purchase.”
“Great House Warming gifts.”
“A fun toy for your Doberman."

translated from a Chinese clothing manufacturer's ad:
"Happy Hand Glove Factory - Cat and rabbit wanted. Price good. Pay fast."

If you like the medals, then collect them; but no one can predict if there will be a premium in the future. Some $4 beanie babies once sold for hundreds – now…?

“WOW - It's "Estate Quality" Must be good!”

Thursday March 06, 2008 4:50 PM

If you buy the coin, you get the kittens -- free. (For $10 extra maybe they'll sell you the cookbook, too.)

“Retread thread: What does everyone do for a living?”

Monday August 11, 2008 5:48 PM

I train aardvarks. They are used in high-end resort hotels to clean the corners of rooms and keep the kitchens free of ants, termites, cats and other vermin. I also own a 3,000 acre private hunting preserve. Open hunting starts at $5,000 per day depending on your choice of game.

“What's the best deal you ever found at an estate sale?”

Friday November 06, 2009 8:19 PM

Several years ago – just before our local JayCees BBQ fundraiser – one of the guys found a sale where they had a box of kittens….

“New Service that we are Offering”

Wednesday December 23, 2009 9:19 AM

Hmmm..seems to be a reasonable way to buy gold and get rid of vermin (aka "cat") at the same time. My company makes a sturdy, air tight shipping container - perfect for shipping cats long distances at cheap rates.

“Acetone cleaning”

Saturday January 16, 2010 8:06 AM

I've used it to remove PVC residue. It is also very effective at removing cats and their “oily residue.” In either case, follow the precautions others have mentioned.

“I have a slab with a fingerprint on it... What should I do?”

Tuesday March 23, 2010 9:54 AM

It should be instantly destroyed ? Go buy a used military flame thrower and some nice 91 octane gasoline ? Throw the slab in the gasoline (along with any cats you might be unlucky enough to have around), then blast it with the flame thrower? Send the remains (holder, not the cats) to whatever company made the holder and ask for an upgrade? (Sell the cat dust as seasoning for So. Carolina ribs?)

“How do you finance new acquisitions?”

Sunday April 10, 2011 10:12 AM

Lately, have been trapping feral cats and selling them. Amazing how popular Buffalo wings have become.

“How do you finance new acquisitions?”

Sunday April 10, 2011 2:21 PM

What's the going market rate on the ferals? I think I've got a few of them floating around here.

Current rate is $4 each in fresh condition, $3 each if in pieces or missing parts. Road kill versions are $1 per pound if well squished – makes an interesting dipping sauce.

“How about some Cat and Coin Pic's”

Thursday June 24, 2010 7:15 AM

Gaak! An infested thread...where's the meat grinder when you need it?

“How about some Cat and Coin Pic's”

Thursday June 24, 2010 1:57 PM

Mangy little vermin…..Not sure I’d want to feed that to a coyote.

“Hiding places”

Sunday September 12, 2010 1:19 PM

I use the cat.

 

Such postings were not limited to the PCGS forums. Here are some from the NGC Fourms:

 

NGC Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote:

“Re: The secret behind toning?”

10/14/12 11:29 AM

Late year I tried this with the cat. Wrapped it in a paper napkin and put it in a plastic bag. When I opened the bag six weeks later everything looked the same - it was a little smellier, but cats stink anyway…

“Re: Introducing: The Fourth Annual Secret Santa Swap”

11/24/12 08:07 AM

Are kittens numismatic gifts?

“Re: Introducing: The Fourth Annual Secret Santa Swap”

11/25/12 08:00 AM

Last time, I had a problem stuffing them into those fixed-rate envelopes. A kind lady at the PO helped flattend them [the kittens] so they would fit and I could seal the envelope.

“Re: Introducing: The Fourth Annual Secret Santa Swap”

11/25/12 01:00 PM

...if you slice them thinn you can fan them out and they'll fit ...

I hadn't thought of that! Maybe I'll add a small tube of glue so the recipient can stick the kitten back together.

“Re: Does anyone remember?”

03/09/14 10:18 AM

I sent him a kitten to grade -- but never got it back. I presume it was eaten.

“Re: Should the Comment Box be used?”

04/30/14 04:12 PM

As far as the comment box goes - I guess we can let our cats use them, they have no other purpose.

I will tell the cat...just as soon as I scrape him off the street out front.

 

 

 

Section 4.

Conclusion.

 

Mr. Burdette has no standing in the case. I am aware of no instance where we bought, sold, or traded coins between us. He has not, and can not, point to any instance of violation or of direct harm that has come to anyone as a result of my production of over-struck novelty coins. Regardless, Mr. Burdette continues to make libelous accusations on public numismatic forums that I am engaging in “counterfeiting”, even though there is no valid legal basis for that claim. As such, he is violating the ANA bylaw “unjustly defaming the character of any other member”. In addition, Mr. Burdette’s pattern of deplorable statements about cats, on public numismatic forums, are in violation of the ANA bylaw “engaging in conduct unbecoming a member”.

 

Mr. Burdette’s violations of ANA bylaws are, in my opinion, sufficient grounds for his expulsion from the ANA. I am not, however, requesting that the ANA take that action. But I do urge the ANA to exercise caution in all dealings with Mr. Burdette.

 

 

 

 

Daniel Carr

ANA Member

 

 

D.

 

 

E.

Internet (NGC Collectors Society forum) statements Mr. Burdette has made since the ANA ruling against him.

 

Mr. Burdette has, on numerous occasions since January 2015, taken to labeling me as the “Colorado Counterfeiter” or similar.

 

NGC Forum Thread title / date, time

Mr. Burdette wrote (unless otherwise noted):

 

 

“Re: Refunds on counterfeit and mis-attributed coins”

06/03/15 02:50 PM

Those who hold themselves out as professional. or expert. or other terms implying authority or knowledge, must be responsible for their decisions. The existence of authentication companies only makes that of greater importance since the professional coin seller ('dealer") has the option of obtaining an independent opinion on authenticity.

Refunding the cost of the coin is good and if the seller did not pay for authentication, and the coin was later found to be false, then the seller should also pay for the authentication opinion and postage. Title cannot be passed for a counterfeit.

As for destroying the counterfeit. That would be nice, but there are too many around for that to have any practical effect. If the Colorado Counterfeiter can keep making fakes, even after having some destroyed, it means neither hobby organizations nor law enforcement care about it.

 

Daniel Carr replied
(which went unanswered by RWB):

“Who is this "Colorado counterfeiter" you speak of ?
What hobby organization are you talking about ?
What coins were destroyed ?”

“Re: Counterfeit Coins - Any Value?”

06/05/15 03:38 PM

The point of the OP's question seemed to be responsibility when a false coin was sold. Unless there is some written agreement between buyer and seller otherwise, the seller is presumed to deliver good title. Since good title to a counterfeit coin cannot pass, it is the seller's responsibility to remedy the situation. It does not matter if the coin was made last week in Colorado by a 5th grade art student, last year in Guangzhou by Liu Wen Zheng, or a century ago in Detroit by a bored auto worker.

As a matter of ethical behavior, my opinion is that the seller of the fake should also reimburse the buyer for authentication costs.

[Admittedly, counterfeits of circulating coins made in the 19th century, have a legitimate historical value. Their perpetrators and victims are long gone. But that comes back to disclosure.]

“Re: PCGS speeds up”

07/01/15 12:48 PM

1.6% fakes. It would be interesting to know the proportion of old fakes (pre-ANAAB) vs new ones from China, Colorado or other assorted crooks.

“Re: Counterfeit Coins - Any Value?”

08/01/15 04:52 PM

Look in the Colorado telephone directory. Have heard there's a nest of counterfeiting varmints - maybe they can tell you.

Old contemporary fakes are of historical interest. Modern ones are just junk.

“Re: Advertised Key Date FAKE Morgans...Shame!”

01/15/16 07:42 AM

Counterfeiters say the same things whether in Canton or Colorado.

“Re: Counterfeiting SO rampant now. 40% Kennedys AND a mutilated 1929 Mercury!!!”

01/29/16 04:56 PM

Someone in Colorado makes and sells things that appear to be fake Kennedy halves - regular clad and bicentennial; but, they look better than the one the OP posted.

“Re: A genius idea!”

02/07/16 08:08 AM

Initially, ANACS was a lot like that - basic info, no krap.

Well....there's always the new company "Face Value Coin Knowledge and Understanding" where the cost of grading is the face value of the coin but no one bothers to authenticate it. Perfect for all those pieces of "questionable authenticity" coming from China and Colorado.

“Re: Simple definition of "fake."”

02/10/16 06:35 PM

Hmmm....Such woeful crocodile tears from Colorado.

Let's see...what was that simple, easy to remember definition of "fake?"

Merriam-Webster definition:
“Fake (adjective, simple definition of fake): not true or real : meant to look real or genuine but not real or genuine.”

“Re: Upgrade from 66 to 67”

03/05/16 09:01 AM

There are bogus and altered ASGs [ASEs] made in Colorado and sold to fools and suckers, also. So why not 2015-W fakes from elsewhere?

“Re: What to do with gold coin”

03/11/16 03:10 AM

NGC can examine and authenticate your coin. If it is not genuine - or maybe a Colorado Counterfeit - they can tell you.

“Re: Mint Error Coin Struck on Nail on eBay--It's "Certified"”

04/18/16 09:30 AM

But -- what about the wonderful fake die? Doesn't that add value to the nail? And...maybe it was made in Colorado -- surely Colorado fake dies are a value-added proposition....?

“Re: After the Prez dollars?”

04/28/16 08:53 AM

[In reply to posting my 2019 Apollo design]

Preferably, Congress will allow circulating coins to return to stable configurations (with much improved designs), and use commemorates for promotional functions.

As for the design sketch presented above --- Gag!
A trite design combined with 5th grade art skills. Completely lacking in originality and artistic merit.

A 2019 moon landing commemorative - of any kind - should draw on the very best American sculptural artistic talent.

“Re: After the Prez dollars?”

04/28/16 09:35 AM

[In reply to posting my 2019 Apollo design]

Wasn't comparing the sketch with anything else. It's awful on it's own.

“Re: Tungsten filled bullion gold”

05/25/16 09:07 AM

"This would be a felony, no?"
Yep. Just like making counterfeits or fake dies in Colorado or Shenyang City.

“Re: ANA Summer seminar series - anyone here attend?”

07/05/16 11:03 AM

"....and everyone should take the course on counterfeit detection."

Agreed. It's also fortuitous that the counterfeit detection class is offered not far from the source of so many counterfeits, too!

“Re: Dcarr over strike question?”

07/05/16 8:32 AM

U.S. Code - Counterfeit Coins

"Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 709; July 16, 1951, ch. 226, § 3, 65 Stat. 122; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(B), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2146.)"

This applies to everyone including those living in Colorado.

“Re: Apply Real/Fake Passports,Driver’s License,ID Cards,Visas, USA Green Card,Citize”

09/03/16 08:11 AM

The "Colorado Counterfeiter" could provide fake coins to your fake ID operation....!

“Re: The Hobby Protection Act of 1973”

09/12/16 09:14 AM

There's no lack of clarity in the HPA.

For numismatics, in effect, HPA is a single exception to counterfeiting statutes. It allows one, and only one, means of making/distributing something that looks like a coin, but was not legally produced. The exception is addition of the word "COPY" to one face of the item in a text size specified in the law. Ron Landis and nearly everyone making legitimate replicas has understood this clear, and unequivocal condition. Maybe the mine runoff water around Loveland, Colorado makes some people there self-serving liars?

“Re: Exonumia ~ (Medallion) > USS Constitution / ‘View’”

09/26/16 09:18 AM

 

 

 

Posted by dcarr

09/28/16 02:26 PM

 

“Re: Exonumia ~ (Medallion) > USS Constitution / ‘View’”

09/28/16 03:36 PM

The flag direction on a sailing ship always matches the wind direction. That is, a sailing ship cannot move faster than the wind. Line engravers - ones who had never seen a ship under sail? - occasionally ignored this because a backward-furling flag made it look like the ship was moving faster.

Daniel Carr wrote:

 “... a sailing ship cannot move faster than the wind. ...

 

That is false.
Sailing faster than the wind [Wikipedia link]

RWB wrote:

If any sailing ship were to exceed the local windspeed, the sails would furl the opposite direction, and flags would point to the stern.
Simply put, no sailing vessel can move through water (or anything else) faster than the wind that propels it. It's very basic physics...understood even by 5th grade art students.

Re: 1853 "Liberty Head" - Restrike in gold

10/11/16 08:06 AM

This further reinforces the need to destroy ALL counterfeits made in Colorado or any other place.

Re: Back to the Hobby Protection Act – Please.

10/16/16 04:13PM

Does Mr. Carr have a letter from the U.S. Attorney General stating that his items are legal to make, sell and own?
Nope. Just more Carr quacks.

Maybe a letter from the 4th assistant deputy AG's cocker spaniel dog?
Nope. More quacking.

Maybe a letter from his Granny?
Nope. More quacking.

Nearly every crook proclaims their innocence....a mere" babe in the woods," or "it's 'their' fault," or some other set of lies and attempts to redirect attention away from illegal and immoral actions.

Re: Back to the Hobby Protection Act – Please.

10/17/16 02:34 PM

Lies and more lies from Mr. Carr. Nothing but lies.

Re: Text of revised Hobby Protection Act published in Federal Register

11/08/16 03:46 PM

"’The correct answer is bobsled ride to hell,’ or that nice Federal prison in Loveland, CO.  : ) ”

 

Daniel Carr replied:

“So, you're familiar with the Federal Prison System are you ?  ; ) ”

Re: Daniel Carr Madison County Coin Club Medal
10/25/23 – 05/14/24
NGC Forum:
“US, World and Ancient Coins”

hkfears wrote:
In 2021 the Madison County Coin Club had Daniel Carr produce a club medal. The silver medal only had 27 minted. 

The club is going to have a 2024 medal also minted by Daniel Carr. You can learn more at the club's website at:  http://mccc.anaclubs.org/

Roger W Burdette replied:
Well, those are about as original as the perpetrator gets: trite, ugly and utterly meaningless. One might expect a bit more creative talent around Huntsville.

Roger W Burdette replied:
Mr. Carr has sold some pleasant 5th-grade-art cartoon medals. (See the two medals MorganMan posted that include human figures. The Denver Mint portal is a pleasant copy -- as usual nothing original, and even here the Liberty head is misshapen.) There are people who like this kind of stuff so that's up to them. He has no authority to manufacture a coin, or anything that resembles a coin --  neither does anyone else.

The club medals are particularly egregious: bad copies of the creative work of others, totally lacking in even a mediocre 5th grader's originality. One can hope the club did not pay for these designs.

Daniel Carr replied:
That is not a nice way to welcome a brand new member (hkfears and their coin club) to the forum.
You want to see a Cartoon ? Here is one in your "honor" (and likeness) :

Roger W Burdette replied:
Why do you accumulate counterfeits when there are so many authentic coins to collect. You're merely encouraging criminal enterprise

Roger W Burdette replied:
A counterfeit is a counterfeit -- even if made by someone with the talent of a 5th grader.

Roger W Burdette replied:
To the positive side, one must admit that Mr. Carr's Madison County Coin Club medal is certainly near the apex of a typical 10-year old 5th grader's artistic skill. So, in that respect Mr. Carr is evidently at the "top of his game."

Re: Daniel Carr to mint the 2025 Madison County Coin Club Medal

10/22/24

NGC Forum:
“US, World and Ancient Coins”

Was the design a YN [Young Numismatist] contest -- 10 and under?

Really hope the club gets better reproduction of the central designs than shown on the illustration. They rival the fuzzy mess the US Mint has adopted. I suspect Mr. Carr can do better - he has in the past.

Re: Roger Burdette’s Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book

10/09/24

NGC Forum:
“US, World and Ancient Coins”

Daniel Carr wrote:

The main reason that proof coins are multi-struck is not to bring up the details. The first strike causes the planchet to expand radially up against the collar. And after this first strike the coin will have radial mint luster to some extent despite the dies being polished. But since almost all of the radial expansion occurs on the first strike, subsequent strikes have the effect of imparting the polished nature of the dies onto the coin because it is not expanding in diameter any more.

 

Roger W Burdette replied:
Bull Sh+t.
[The reference is likely to a planchet....but it's sometimes difficult to know what a 5th grade "artist" is thinking when it speaks.]

 

Roger W Burdette replied:
Fifth grade talent; comparable engineering skill.

Roger W Burdette replied:
More lies from a 5th grade "artist."
Read any small-word books on making phony coins lately?

Roger W Burdette replied:
It's up to NGC to remove Carr with his lies, and ignorance. His lack of adult creative talent can not be changed - it is 5th grade competent and that's about all. J

Re: D.Carr Came Up at Greenville Course

10/29/24

NGC Forum:
“US, World and Ancient Coins”

VKurtB wrote:

I didn’t do it, the instructors did. The course was on counterfeits. The instructors brought up Carr’s coins as an example of what IS COMPLETELY LEGAL TO MAKE, SELL, AND POSSESS UNDER THE COPYRIGHT LAW AND THE HOBBY PROTECTION ACT. There were 25 students in the course, most of whom were dealers. I mentioned Roger’s dissent, and the instructors dismissed Roger as a crank. 

 

Roger W Burdette replied:

Hope you had a bucket for his green vomit and filth. J Maybe it can make another 5th grade artistic innovation -- finger-painted medals?

 

Roger W Burdette replied:
No authoritative proof has ever been produced. His junk involves mutilating real coins, then impressing them with false dies. That is absolutely clear in laws prohibiting counterfeiting coins. It is disgusting that this is allowed to continue by complacency and ignorance.

Any claim that these fakes are "acceptable" is extraordinary by any sensible reading of the statutes. Therefore, all that is needed is a written statement from the Justice Dept. stating that what is being done is WITHIN the law. Nothing more is needed.

If one looks at the facts, the subject items are no different than any other counterfeit, including the use of false alloy, mutilation of legal coinage and manufacture of false dies and tools used to make them.

Making or distributing counterfeits is illegal - and collectors incessantly complain about "Chinese fakes" and sellers on-line and a flea markets. ANA, hobby organizations, and those with money to hire a good lawyer do nothing.

 

More morbid fascination with cats:

 

 

“Re: Silver Stacking? Dragon? Nah... Right?”

04/16/16 09:24 AM

The value of small silver bars is in what you can get for them in dollars, euros or beef quarters. Yes, they are shiny, but even Smaug couldn't eat the stuff and had to subsist on the occasional wandering Dwarf or stray cat.

“Re: Coin Submission to NGC”

08/28/16 05:31 PM

If the coins were stuffed in a cat, would that provide enough protection?

“Re: Re-submission, Conservation or Nothing”

08/31/16

As noted, we all have run across this kind of problem especially early in the collecting cycle.

(I recently ran into it with the family cat, which came back "artificially toned" from a local cat cleaner....)

“Re: Charmy's Brief April 2017 SANTA CLARA COIN SHOW REPORT w/lots of pics!”

04/26/17 09:27 AM

Great report, as usual! Which buffet featured the cat?

 

 

In these posts below, Mr. Burdette disparages the integrity of the ANA:

 

 

“Re: ANA video competition”

09/02/15 02:40 PM

Good idea!

[Did anyone find ANA's ethical backbone at the ANA convention? It's been missing for quite a while, so I hear....]

 

Daniel Carr replied
(which went unanswered by RWB):

“Are you still an ANA member ?”

Re: Is the hobby/business of coin collecting populated by unethical spineless worms?

09/13/16 02:46 PM

The ANA does not support or follow the Hobby Protection Act. Neither does the ANA follow its own Code of Ethics.

ANA apparently stands for "American Numismatic Annelids." They should change their logo from a lamp of enlightenment to a gaggle of marching Lamellibrachian tube worms.

Re: I Hope Nobody Falls For This…

10/29/24 08:46 AM

NGC Forum:
“Newbie Coin Collecting Questions”

So.....where is ANA, as the collectors' association, in prosecuting sellers of counterfeit coins? The Federal Charter shoud give them standing in any Federal or state court. Oh, I forgot --- ANA welcomes counterfeiters as members.... L